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Post by The Viceroy (AdminM) on Oct 10, 2016 14:13:12 GMT
Since Alex was left with no choice.
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Post by Médecin Mabusé on Oct 10, 2016 14:17:10 GMT
OoC: It's of no concern. I think it's quite clear here what really happened.
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Post by Frederick IV on Oct 10, 2016 14:53:21 GMT
I was given the option to defend my land or no, I paid a much higher price for it than would be realistic for any naval engagement.
The price of the engagement is not the point, I was given two choices, I took one and stuck with it (granted on the assumption of a better outcome than the one given). The issue here was not with my sticking to one of the choices offered. Deliberately wanting to defend your territory doesn't constitute aggression, the invasion of it does. Not deliberately defending it after it was challenged is not an option either.
Alex, was responsible for initiating the issue, to which I was given no choice but either to engage or accept my territory being bypassed without permission. I stuck to it despite the offer of him not doing so (not initially offered as a choice). He then also accepted the engagement after it became clear I would follow one of the two choices offered (there was no offer of the fleet withdrawing initially - accepting it would show an unwillingness to defend my key asset).
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Post by Pyotr Alekseevich on Oct 10, 2016 17:00:10 GMT
Danish losses were far from unrealistic. If anything the Danish fleet came out of this engagement with a surprisingly strong result.
It is of little consequence who was the agressor, two states were cought in a standoff which through confusion resulted in a bloody battle. This is not really exceptional.
Can we just get on with enjoying the game?
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Post by Frederick IV on Oct 10, 2016 17:24:01 GMT
Errr, no. I mean, the Anglo-Dutch fleet had essentially no sea room for more than perhaps 4 ships (including frigates) to bring their guns to bear. The remainder would have been under the guns of the fort the whole time, their own cannon being ineffective at that range, or bringing themselves onto the shallows.
I have studied this period of naval history in depth (as has Theo who can attest to the low losses) - lost ships were very rare, the victor rarely did anything but capture enemy ships. To put it into context, in the entire series of battles of the war of Spanish succession - the battle at Cabrita point,https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cabrita_Point was the bloodiest with the loss of 2 ships (bar Wager's action in unique circumstances where 3 galleons had to be sent to the depths, but 12 merchantmen survived).
Quite honestly, the circumstances of Alex's attack would have resulted in the destruction (but more likely capture) of most of his fleet.
In any case, the entire action was brought about by Alex's drive for battle, which I did not decline, even when it was offered. I agree with enjoying the game, but Denmark did not declare war on the Three Kingdoms. Indeed, the Three Kingdoms essentially initiated hostilities without a formal declaration of war.
The only folly in this was that the British chose to attack.
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Post by Dom Pedro II on Oct 10, 2016 19:57:30 GMT
Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Please! The questions of justice and injustice, the question of who started the war and the questions surround violations of sovereignty; these are all issues that academics and statesmen can argue over for centuries to come! Why waste ourselves on such quarrels when there are legions of undergraduate and postgraduate dissertations, PHDs and books that can do the labour for us?!
No, let us focus on the fact that we have before us, the fact that Denmark-Norway and the Three Kingdoms are at war. Let posterity reason why.
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Post by The Viceroy (AdminM) on Oct 10, 2016 19:59:58 GMT
There are compelling arguments being put forward. I shall change the aggressor status, taking Sweden out of the war. I often have to process a lot of information at any given time, and sometimes have to rely on a general feel for what happened. In my mind the English willingness to withdraw and the Danish eagerness to not allow them to led me to feel Denmark was the more aggressive of the two.
With reference to the loss/capture of ships, from a simple balancing standpoint ship losses are more practical for this game. Otherwise, if an entire fleet was captured, in this case Denmark, would find their fleet doubled. This would also have dire effects for that country's income in the game as upkeep on a navy is remarkably large.
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Post by Frederick IV on Oct 10, 2016 20:03:50 GMT
OOC: Richard, thank you.
Indeed - it's why ships were more often sold off as prizes (frequently below market value of the ship) where the navy could not use it.
Which adds a nice flavour (smaller nations with less income can do very well).
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Post by Frederick IV on Oct 11, 2016 20:13:23 GMT
Frederick IV offers the following terms: White peace - return to status quo
A tentative offer of a nominal share in the Hansa from Denmark's allotted portion when the Hansa Baltic Trading Company (when finalised).
Denmark has also offered to send it's forces South to help in the defence of Vienna in the event of a peace treaty being signed presently.
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Post by Leopold I von Habsburg on Oct 11, 2016 20:55:58 GMT
Austria had up until now taken a policy of non-involvement in this most recent Northern War. However, once again, we feel that (OOC: what's left of us) should stress the importance of diplomacy and the value of talking as a means to scale down tensions. Austria is in favour of the motion by the King of Denmark-Norway, and we very much welcome the offer of Danish troops to help bluster the defences of Vienna against the Ottoman invader. For this offer, we are truly grateful.
We suggested this side-show war, the causes of which baffle the Emperor, be brought to an end at once, for the sake of the historians who will one day right about this great epoch in European state relations. This white peace is, indeed, extremely fair.
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Post by Frederick IV on Oct 12, 2016 5:44:36 GMT
Frederick IV once again reiterates his desire to send a force south to assist the Austrians, however there must be no threat to the Danish shore. The absence of Marlborough from Southern Germany from the siege of Munich means even the successful conclusion of this would not free up men for Vienna. Frederick sees England's war with Denmark as a side show to the main event.
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Post by Frederick IV on Oct 20, 2016 13:14:18 GMT
If the French offer of formal alliance still stands, Denmark-Norway accepts, and would call an end to any hostile actions as part of the ceasefire between France and the Three Kingdoms.
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